SNW Ep 3 Francesca Donlan. How to Thrive in Sobriety with Kindness.

Episode Description:

In this episode of Sobriety Now What?, we explore a powerful tool for living a fulfilling, sober life: kindness. Joining me is a very special guest — my sister, Francesca Donlan, a two-time Pulitzer Prize-nominated journalist who created the first kindness class at Florida Gulf Coast University. Francesca’s groundbreaking work has helped countless students boost their confidence, self-esteem, and connection to their communities.

We dive deep into the science and transformative power of kindness — what it truly means to be kind, how small actions can ripple out to create big impacts, and why kindness is a must-have in your "Thriving Sober Toolbox." Whether it’s learning to be kind to yourself, offering a smile to a stranger, or spreading joy with sticky notes, Francesca shares inspiring stories and actionable strategies to help you heal, grow, and thrive.

This episode will leave you feeling uplifted, empowered, and ready to make kindness a daily habit. Tune in to discover how kindness can improve your relationships, your community, and most importantly, your own journey in sobriety. 🌟

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Invitation to consider at least one helpful piece of information to help them thrive in their sobriety and to share with podcast with others and to follow and email questions. 

Transcript

SNW EP 3 Francesca Donlan How to Thrive in Sobriety with Kindness.

[00:00:00] 

Francesca Donlan  

Nominated for 2 Pulitzer prizes for journalism. She has worked as a journalist from east to west coast and saw the good and the bad and wants to spread the good. 

2010 She had her own news collum called the Upbeat and covered kindness and the goodness in the community.  This was the first of its kind. 

 2020 Taught first kindness class at Florida Gold coast University. 

She left corporate communications to pursue her calling to teach kindness to a broader audience. And today she here with us. 

She is also my sister. And we had two alcoholic parents.  

Let me pass this over to you. 

Hi, Stuart. Thank you for having me on your podcast. I let's see.

Well, first let's say that I. I'm your sister and I think by now maybe listeners know that we both came from an alcoholic family. Do they know that yet? 

They may know that already They will 

and we also came from a family that was complicated, more so by shared assets, shall we say, and weren't very kind.

So can I say 

one thing just to interrupt you for a second, even cause I think you're my sister. No, no, we're going to keep going. I think brothers and sisters are allowed to do this in the podcast. I was to kind of share that I grew up in a alcoholic home is I was born in Suffer, New York, and that gives you a little idea of the, what my life would be like.

And I was born into three parents, mom, dad, and vodka.

I don't know if that would be appropriate or not. Yeah. 

It's out there now. 

Okay. So [00:01:00] sorry to interrupt. Okay. That's 

okay. Yeah. So that, so, so they can hear that. That's those who were parents. And I saw some not nice kind things throughout my life and I think I've just had a heart for kindness.

And so in 2020 I started the first kindness class at Florida Gulf Coast University, which is a miracle that I was able to teach a kindness class in an academic setting, even though it was about the science and research about kindness. Academics in general are very wary about soft classes like that.

And as you mentioned, the angry emails I got were from people who don't value that as an academic. Standard either, but I have to say despite all that we could talk more about it at the end of each semester I would do I would do a survey and at the end of my classes every student in that class Increased their self esteem their self confidence their connection to their community and had a [00:02:00] stronger Commitment to practicing kindness and acts of kindness for them to themselves and other people So if that's not what You know, you don't want that for your college students.

I'm not sure what you want, particularly when so many are dropping out and so many are hurting themselves, etc, etc. 

I think that's what we all want to live a happier life in one where people are kinder and a little gentler. And maybe we can do that to ourselves as well. Can you define kindness? Cause sometimes I think of, well, it's kindness being nice.

And I'm like, I don't always want to be nice. And what does that mean? And do you have to be compassionate as a mindfulness? It's like, what exactly is kindness? 

I think kindness is actually I, I describe it as like, you have to work on your kindness muscles because it's an, it's an action, like it's not just like nice, right?

Nice and kindness aren't the same. Anyone can be nice, like, you know, being polite. I mean, the most evil people can be nice, 

but 

to be kind requires an action. So [00:03:00] for me, it's, opening a door for someone. It's thinking about someone first, it's helping someone in need, but just, it can be tiny, tiny little things.

And most importantly, it starts with yourself. So I'm sure that there's a lot of people listening who might be having lots of self doubt or, or, Not, not being particularly kind to themselves. Let's go with that. And that's everyone actually, but in this population even more so. And so I, I think that everyone has to start actually being kind to themselves first.

And so, oh, sorry. No, no, go ahead. Yeah. If kindness is an action is what's the intention behind a kind act? Is it, I want to make someone's day, even if it's our own, a little better, a little less stressed, a little, is it like that? Like, how do you know if you're doing an act of kindness? 

[00:04:00] Yeah, I think that's it.

It's you have to extend a part of yourself to do it. So Like for example, if I give you a compliment like Stu you look so handsome today on your podcast your your Chemicals in your brain 

pop 

a little bit The same way they would if I said, Stu, here's five bucks for no reason. Like giving a compliment has the same vibration, has the same chemical reaction as giving me, giving you money for no reason.

So I think of it as like, like, like, You're, you know, like those bumper stickers spread kindness like wildflowers, you know you're spreading like you're spreading all this wonderful juice in people's brains, you know, by just complimenting someone or, or saying what you think out loud, which is night, you know, which is, which is a lovely sentiment about someone.

Yeah. I love it. Okay. So just like, I Sophie and I would go to like a drive through [00:05:00] occasionally, , maybe a coffee spot, and we play this game of who could compliment the person the most, right. It would make it into this game. And so we'd be like, Oh, I like your hair. Cause they'd have usually colored hair or tattoos or whatever.

And so we'd be like, kind of like barking up these compliments, but they just felt so much better afterwards and we felt better afterwards and then to make it a little competition, it was kind of funny because it was like, Not only are we helping them, but we're also kind of, you know, in this game together.

So fun. And that is such a good game. I hope other people listening will play that game. We, I did in my, for my students, one of the challenges was give someone a comp, give a stranger a compliment. Okay. They had like all these challenges every week. And so the joke was that there was a public grocery store near the college and at the last minute they would forget or something.

And the same. Kid who pushed the baskets at public [00:06:00] was just getting inundated with great job. Looking good. You're like, so I would joke that all this is the time of year that all the baggers and publics are getting like rained on with compliments for my class. So 

yeah, they're like, this is the greatest job ever.

Yes. Yeah. All right. Love it. Okay. Now, do you ever, have you looked into like. Mirror neurons, like if someone smiles, like that could be an act of kindness because people mirror back a smile to you. So it doesn't, that's, we don't have to really put ourselves out there too much, 

right? It's like, I heard someone say the other day, everyone wants to feel welcome, but no one wants to be the first to, Like to, well, to be the, the smiler and the welcomer, right?

Like we all want to be a smile to happen. Nobody wants to be the versus smile. So yeah, a smile is an act of kindness. Absolutely. 

Is it boost those dopamine stuff? Feel good. Tell me in our brain, 

the person's feeling [00:07:00] seen and you know, 

so to win, win. So if we're helping being, or if we're being kind to someone else, We're really, it's still an act of kindness to us.

Cause we're going to get those bumps of dopamine and that feel good chemical in our brain. So it's not just, okay, 

this is another funny, yes, you're going to get all this, all the, all the increases of your chemicals. But one thing we do in class is I'd make them do a skit where I have a student, give the other student a compliment.

And then I have the student go, well, for example, they do it from real life. So two students were standing up. And one pretended they were their mother. Okay, and they had just cooked this really great dinner and the student says, hey, mom, great dinner. And she says, really? Because I think I think it was a little overcooked.

And I think the beans are a little like not really chewy. And so we show that The person is giving their mother a compliment. The mother is not receiving it. So they both don't get the chemical boost. Then we do a, we do the skit where the mother says, thank you. I love making dinner for you. [00:08:00] I thought it was delicious too.

It's so fun to be together. And then they both get the boost. So. I tell my students that when you, when someone gives you a compliment and you poo poo it, you say this whole thing, you're like depriving the other person of their chemicals. So just say, thank you. 

That's awesome. All right. So it's that energy that you bring and pass on to others, that uplifting energy.

Nice. Okay. All right. I'm going to ask some questions. All right, let's see. So when you would do a kindness class, like How, what would you teach? Like, how would you start a class? Like, how do you even present this to people? Like, it's, it's tough to kind of touch or like, I like to like. It's direct your head around it.

It is, it is. But I think that thing that people don't really don't really know or appreciate is that huge universities like Yale, Harvard are doing kindness initiatives, kindness classes, kindness. The class at Yale was one of the [00:09:00] most successful in its 300 year history. So what I do is I do like we have, we do some PowerPoints about like, so we pick a topic like empathy or compassion or.

Let's start with self esteem because that's a big one. And that's, I spent, I learned from my students that I need to spend quite a bit of time on that because they all came in and they all sort of self identified as not liking themselves. So if you don't like yourself, it's really, it's, it's harder to.

Be kind. It's just a little bit. So, so we would, we would work on on what that means and then what that does to your health. There's so much out there about what kindness does to your health, longevity, relationships. I mean, everything, it helps everything. That's why I don't know why. You know, we're not all on board, but we're not.

Anyway so we would do self esteem challenges and we would talk about it. And at the end of the self esteem piece where we would talk, we'd [00:10:00] do research and there's, there's, there's faculty out there in California that's just specialized in, in, in these things, empathy, self compassion.

Anyway, we look at the research and read the books. And anyway, at the end of the class, they have to write themselves a love letter. And pretty much every semester, everyone flunks that. But of course, I don't flunk them. I say, this is an opportunity to do it again. So then we, because they don't know, they don't really understand really what that means to write a love letter.

They say things like, Dear Steve it was really nice of you to help your mom take out, to take out the trash for your mom. Okay, so that's not a love letter. That's like, that's just like, Okay Steve, thanks for taking out the trash for me. A love letter is, you know, Dear Steve, The way you manage your life and all your responsibilities and how you're, you, you show up for your mom and you, that's a love letter.

You know, so anyway it's a hard [00:11:00] thing to do but I would, I would really challenge People who are listening to try that. 

Well, I love how it's not easy to do. Right. In fact, I remember hearing you on some interview. And in fact, I'll let you say it about being one of the hardest things about kindness.

Like you were saying that kindness can be one of the hardest things you ever do 

so hard. 

It is hard. It is like that muscle. 

Yeah, because it's, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be vulnerable to give someone a compliment. They might take it the wrong way. You know, you have to be vulnerable to I'll give you a quick little thing that happened just with a friend of mine.

I was with a friend where I was with two friends. One friend lost something that she just bought. We thought we would like go buy her the thing she lost. It was a tiny thing. And my other friend was like, I don't know. I mean it seems weird. Like, well, she think that's too much or, Anyway, it's a long thing about, should we get the other [00:12:00] friend, the 10 thing she lost?

Anyway, finally did. She cried 

for good reasons. Not cause she's like, that's terrible. Yeah. No, she loved it. She 

was touched that we would go back to the store, get the thing, give it to her later date. But my friend was, my other friend was just overthinking it. Cause right. She was thinking about the risks involved.

Like, would she think we overdid it? Would she think we, you know, I don't know. Anyway, so there's just a lot that goes on in your brain. I just say you got to do it. Say the things you think out loud. If you walk by someone and you think they look great, say, you look great. Or good job. 

Absolutely. I mean, everyone leaves the house after looking in the mirror and being like, this is who I'll be today.

So if they're okay with it, then you can compliment on it and be like, Hey, good job and put yourself together out today. You know? 

And if someone takes the time and the energy to compliment you, just thank them. 

Yeah. 

You know, that's a lot. [00:13:00] 

Yeah. And I'd like that. All you have to do is just say, thank you.

You don't have to compliment them back and be like, Oh, this shirt or this blouse, no yours, none of that. Yeah. No. Thank you. And all you have to think is they must have good taste. Yes. Thanks for noticing. Thanks for noticing. Yes. Took me five minutes to get this whole thing happening or said or whatever it was.

I've had this 

shirt for 20 years and no one's ever said anything. 

Had to polish my bald head for it to get out today. It was fantastic. So I want to touch back on the letter of kindness to themselves, because it's not, you're not, it's not their natural tendency to be kind, right? It was, you had to change, they had to change their perspective to make sense out of what does that even mean?

And you had to guide them and say, Hey, No, this is kindness, not that. And so how, what are some exercises that you do during the [00:14:00] class to help them give acts of kindness? I know sometimes you use sticky notes and you have people go out and write things, or can you share some of those things? 

Yeah. Sure.

Let me just also say the reason that the being kind to themselves letter was hard too, is that they didn't even know, right? This didn't, they were in the dark about everything. One, one, one student said to me, I thought that brushing your teeth and, you know, doing your laundry with self care. I didn't realize that being nice to yourself, being kind to yourself with self care too.

Like it wasn't even in our vocabulary, you know? Anyway. So what do we do in my class? Yeah. So, well, for the self care part, yeah, we have to do one week doing nice things for themselves, right? They had no idea what that meant, so we had to create the list, and that goes anywhere from taking a nap to if you go to the gym too much, take a break.

If you don't go to the gym at all, take a break. [00:15:00] It could maybe go one time, you know, or if you want Starbucks, right? If you want the Starbucks drink and you deprive yourself of it week after week, get the Starbucks drink, you know, whatever that means to you do it, you know? So we come back and it's, it's.

They're just blown away. Like, oh my god, look what I did for myself today. You know, like, it wasn't in their vocabulary. And then, yeah, one, then I do give yourself a compliment. So, with some sticky notes, and they have to put them on their mirrors. Or, one, one student covered their whole door in sticky notes to remind themselves.

Like, I'm okay. Let's see, what else do I have them do? Compliment, do something good, write themselves a love letter. And you had, 

if I remember correctly, you had them go out and do like little sticky notes to other people where they could find them, like in a book, they stick it in a book or something so someone could open it up and be like, Oh, I'm amazing or I had 

them spread out through the, that [00:16:00] was compliment other people day.

Spread out of the college, spread out over the college. And then they did funny ones like you know, they put one on the, on the snack machine and be like, teach yourself. Or my favorite one was they put it on the trash bin and said, you are not this.

And so they just ran around everywhere in the library and just said, like, Keep going. You are awesome. Or they would put on someone's shoulder or they walked into a study room and said like, everyone here is awesome and handed out and just, it just lit everyone up. It was just, and, and the college knows when it's that day because the next day the college has sticky notes.

Everywhere. That's awesome. 

Excellent. And so being kind really can ripple out into the community. Right. And so one kind act can automatically affect somebody else's kind act. It's like, you know, if someone has a bad day at work, they yell at their spouse and they yell at their child and they kick the [00:17:00] cat.

And then, but this has the opposite effect. It's like, it ripples out feeling good and no one's kicking a cat and no one's being yelled at and life is okay. We can do this. 

Yeah, it actually is scientifically proven that kinase ripples out. So Like, even if you just made that your, your mission one, you know, every day, just do one kind thing, knowing that it will ripple out.

You're still making the world one small act of kindness every day. It really can change the world. I fully and totally believe that. 

All right. I have a question for you. So it's, it's we're living in some stressful times for a variety of reasons, as we all know, and I think some people are afraid to do kind acts.

For some guys. They're like, do we hold the door open? Do we not hold the, like, there's some changes in social norms that, you know, maybe we had as a child growing up and there's more independence and how do we show kindness for respect and all these things. And and [00:18:00] what I'm hearing, I guess maybe you've already answered this, is that to share what comes to your mind, that's uplifting, right?

So many people are, you know don't censor themselves when they think poorly of someone or badly, like they can bark at them, but it does take a little more effort to say something kind because it doesn't roll off the tongue as anger might or frustration might, right. Or that big, Oh, it's right. 

That's easy.

And also like, you know, every, all companies will tell you that. All the, all the comments they get are like, this thing's broken, this didn't work. So that's another thing I try to do. I try to Not every day, but I was just on a, like a terrible airline flight. And I, I knew that that guy pilot was going to get a thousand negative comments and it had nothing to do with him.

It was the weather. So, but I just made sure that I went in that, that I sent him a note saying that was treacherous and you did such a great job and thank you for getting us all home safely. And [00:19:00] I wonder how many of those he got, but that's the truth. He did get us home safely despite the, the chaos, he, that was his job and he did it.

You know, that's such a powerful point because it's so easy to, to see the negatives and things. And just like, if you're like, okay, why is this your spouse or your partner? Why are they bad? You'll find all these reasons. But if you say, Hey, why are they good? Why are they amazing? Why are they a gift of my life?

You're going to look for those reasons. I think it's, we have to choose kindness, right? Choose, Let's focus on what did they do right as well. 

Yeah. Yeah. And also it's like how much of your life is, is what are you listening to? Like, what are you looking at? What are you, who are your influencers? Like I, I try not to inundate myself with what's your diet, meaning like what's your media diet.

So 

we talked to the students about that a lot. And you know, there's so many fun things you can, [00:20:00] you can have in your streams, like nice news. There's all these cool, good moments, all these cool things that you can. Also add to your menu of doom scrolling that will lift you up and make you laugh.

So, I think that you just have to re evaluate what your media diet is too. And, and yes, and notice, notice, and that's what I have the students do for a week. Notice. Notice kindness and they their eyes were just so open like whoa. I noticed this. I noticed that I noticed And I'll tell you one quick story.

My favorite story was I did something called a 10 kindness Challenge and I had my kindness fairy My kindness patron give my students all 10 and they had to give out their 10. And there were some rules you couldn't pay for the guy behind you at Starbucks. You know, you couldn't do anonymous again. [00:21:00] It had to be like something thoughtful.

So I had a student who took my class who told me she took it because she didn't know if she believed in kindness that she hadn't seen very much of it and she just wasn't sure. She's curious, so she lived in a low income apartment building with her mom and every morning she would leave the apartment and with her backpack and go to class, get on the bus and go to class and every morning this older man would wave at her, just wave and she decided to get all of her courage up and Introduce like go talk to this man who day after day after day waved to her and made her feel seen So she went over and introduced herself and said I I'm I would like to thank you for Waving to me and just making me feel happy every morning and I want to give you ten dollars to go Have coffee or lunch And he said, Oh no, I, I don't want your 10.

I want you [00:22:00] to finish college. I want you to get out of here. I want you to have a better life. And when she told our class the story, she started crying because she told us he taught her about kindness instead of the other way around. And that's it, right? You just, there are all these people waving at you.

There's rainbows, but you can't see them because your back's to them. You know, it's like, it's out there. It's all around. You just have to look. Yeah. I love that story. And I'm going to share a story too, that you're in this one. This was like 30 years ago before the internet, before computers, before all of that.

And I was Living alone at the time watching the news all like there's only like what five ten stations, whatever. There's no cable. So watching the five say so the news a lot right in the news is like killing and murder and drugs and death and Let's hurt you. And so day after [00:23:00] day and the news, if they can't find problems in your town, they'll find, you know, a bigger town or a bigger state and they can't find problems in your state.

They'll find another state in another country. Like it's amazing though. That's what they're looking for. They're looking for that. And so he called me up one time and you're like, Hey, how are you doing? And I'm like, I'm depressed. I'm miserable. The world, it sucks. Everyone's dying. There's like all these bad things, people, human beings suck and all this other stuff.

And you're a journalist, right? That's what you went to school for. So you've, you've been on that side of the news and you're like, Stuart, go outside. Just look outside, look out the window. So I look out the window and it's like this beautiful day in Massachusetts. It was like sunny and the green grass and people are walking and cars are, you know, driving by and everyone was.

Behaving and and she's like, are you seeing anyone dying? Anyone muggings, anyone being killed? Any, any of that? And I was like, no, it's actually a very nice day out there. It's like the news. It's the exception to the norm. What you don't see is all the good people behind those bad stories trying to help.[00:24:00] 

It gets becomes the news because that's not the norm. That's the exception to the norm. And so if you just, all you're focusing on is the bad stuff, because that's what sells, that's what gets commercials. That's, you know, gets your attention. But. That's not humanity. Like that's really not who we are from day to day.

If you get away from those podcasts that are divisive or the news or whatever, and you just walk along the streets, you're unless, you know, unless you're a tough part of town. You're going to be okay. Like people can be kind, people can say, thank you for opening up the door or, and so I, at times I will before I used to go into the car and just turn on the radio, whatever the radio is on, you know, I'd listen to it, right.

The, you know, music or the advertisements. And I realized I was giving up my, My mental space, my, you know, emotions and connections to whatever is on the radio. And that's like, if there's a happy story, I'd feel better. If there wasn't, I'd [00:25:00] feel that. And so having podcasts and audible and different books on tape and different things or playlists where we can really affect our moods just by what we hear that noise, and to really be more mindful to control the noise around us.

Yes. And, and it doesn't mean that you're like a Pollyanna and you don't know what's happening. It's not like you're putting your, your head in the sand. I know, I know what's happening in the world. I just don't choose to sit in it. 

I 

just, I, I believe that we've got to even more than ever right now. We've got to shine our lights and do as much good as we can because yeah, bad things happen to good people.

Bad things happen all the time, but so do good things. 

Yeah, absolutely. And there's this saying goes around or, you know, I'll change it to make it more personal, but imagine you drove to my office today and you sat down and I said, Hey, [00:26:00] Keena or Francesca how many red cars did you see? And you're like, I don't know.

I was thinking about, you know, seeing you and I have things to do and to do list. I was like, it's like, okay, yeah, well, if you drive home, just take a look and see how many red cars you see. Right. And so you call me back and you're like, yeah, it's all like 50 red cars. Like these things are all around us.

Just like what you already said. It's like, kindness is all around us. Like if we're willing to open up and look for it, you'll see it. 

But if 

you want to see the world as a bad, miserable place, you'll see that too. Yes. And, and sometimes that's easier to see. And I think it's like the low hanging fruit of like, okay, yep.

That's life is tough, but it's like all the good things that allowed for that tree to live and to grow, to produce that fruit, like we totally overlooked all those good things, like it overcame hardships, that tree, like storms and droughts and whatever to produce this wonderful gift for you. And it's like, Oh, it's got a bruise on it.

And we're like, seriously, like, do you know how hard this tree worked [00:27:00] for that? 

There's so much goodness. Like, I just, when I was mentioning that whole plane thing, so I was on a crazy plane trip and there was turbulence, we couldn't land and everything, but, so I didn't get home till 3. 30 in the morning and my cousin, our cousin, Susie and her wife, Linda, picked me up.

So, so they have to stay up. They have to stay awake. They chose, poor babies, to stay awake till 3. 30. And when I get off the plane, Having been flying from 6 in the morning and now it's 3. 30 in the morning. I get in their car, and they have for me a plug in electric blanket, a cup of hot tea, and a bag of Fig Newtons.

Love it. 

And I'm just like, why can't the world see stuff like this? You know what I mean? They're just little, little plane angels for me, and I just think there are people being kind and caring for others. Every day. 

Yes, absolutely. And I do think with a lot of people in early [00:28:00] recovery, there's some communication issues as far as how they're feeling and how they want that feeling to get across of, you know, rebuilding trust and rebuilding communication connection.

Sometimes our words don't really kind of match that or, and, I think if we're led by the heart, right? The kindness is really a place in the heart. It's stored there. Right. And we're really allowing to be led by feeling and emotion rather than by head. Cause if we think by head, just our thoughts. We're going to push down our emotions, which I think we do so many for good and bad.

We're like stuff, the emotion, stuff, the emotion, justify, rationalize, you know, and I think you're right. I think the world is missing out on these kind acts and, you know, there's always those fears that kind of block it. Like, what are they going to say? Are they going to think I'm weak? Are they going to.

Yeah. 

I think I'm hitting on them. Right. Is my wife or spouse going to get mad? Cause I'm talking to someone else who I said, Oh, nice shirt. And they're like, Oh, do you like them? And you're like, no, I just like the shirt. 

Yeah. [00:29:00] Yeah. I know. It's like, you gotta, but the idea that I know culture is changing, more is changing, but I still believe, you know, like I remember I had a man once asked me, like, I don't know if I should say hello or not, or, and I'm like, you know, when you're being creepy, dude.

Yeah. Like, you know, there's just such a easy line between a nice warm. Hello, here's a door opening and some creepy thing. Like, don't be creepy. That's the, that's the, that's the rule. Don't be creepy. And I 

think, do you think that part of the creep factor is there's an agenda or they want something for you?

Like this isn't kindness is like, tell me if this fits. Kindness to me is this altruistic. It's just, I freely see you're a beautiful human being. And I just want to say thank you for being a beautiful human being or smiling, or thank you for opening up that door. Thank you for, you know, you know, giving me this coffee.

Cause I just spilled mine and I, and you gave me a fresh new one. Like I appreciate all that. [00:30:00] Whereas if we're like, Oh yeah, they better give me a cup of coffee. Like if there's this entitlement and they like, I give them like the sweater and they didn't wear the sweater. It's like, Oh my gosh, they suck.

Click. Is that kindness? I don't know. 

No, because it's all, you have ulterior motives. 

Yeah. 

Kindness doesn't ask for anything back. 

It's not about us. It's not about how we look or how they think, like okay, we don't want anything back from it. That's right. Yeah. 

Yeah, we just, it, it's just, Unconditional. And also I think when people are really in their heads, especially I think, I'm guessing I haven't been in recovery, but I know so many people have, I'm, I'm imagining you're in your head a lot.

And the best way to get out of your head, even for anyone who's depressed is to like get out there and help other people. Like, I mean, beyond being kind, like actually go help someone. Like that, that is, they say that if you help another person, you know, you volunteer that has the same [00:31:00] impact as, as a taking an antidepressant, like it gets you out of your head.

So it being kind helps me. That's what helps me feel better 

and 

also helping other people, but it helps everyone. 

Like 

it would help anyone. So someone who's alone, feels lonely, feels like a lot of self hatred or, you know, who, who are they to help anybody? They can help somebody. Everybody needs somebody to help them.

Yeah, I have a story that totally fits with that. There is this couple in Michigan. I read this somewhere and their daughter, teenage daughter, like 19 or something was very depressed, suicidal, just inner room. They were this Christian family. So they go to church every Sunday, but they're like, Really worried about their daughter and, and she's very depressed.

And so she, they'd read all these books. There's reaching out there. They had lots of money. Right? So they, they read this book and they found the psychologist and they're like, Oh my [00:32:00] gosh, this person could help our daughter. So they call up the guy from California, the psychologist and says, Hey, we read your book, we have a daughter need.

We think we. You could help us. Can you fly out? And he's like, well, I don't fly out. I don't do that. And then he gave the, then he offered a lot of money. He's like, I now do that. And so they flew them out there and they got them in like this you know, fancy car drive up to this like big mansion and they take them right into the house and upstairs into her room.

And so for one hour, he sat. Didn't talk to her for one hour and listened. Then at the end of the hour, he came downstairs and he's like, I'm ready to go home. I'm flying back now. And they're like, no, we have you for the whole weekend. And he's like, you don't need me for the whole weekend. I promise you, like I'm going to hope.

And so what he told her was, or what he found out was when he walked into her room, she is an artist. And so she loved drawing and painting and her favorite flowers, lilies. And so she had these paintings and drawings of lilies all over her room. And so he knew just, you know, as a human being, okay, Lily's mean a lot to her.

[00:33:00] Right. That's something that she's feels creatively inspired about. And so she was isolating in her head stock, right? Miserable. I hate myself. I'm a loser. I suck. I'm this, I'm that. And so he says, okay, so you like Lily's and she's like, yeah. And, and because, and he's like, okay, so. You know used to go to this church, but you haven't been going.

It's like, yeah, my parents go and I used to, but I just don't want to be around people. He's like, all right, so this Sunday, what I want you to do is I want you to buy a hundred lilies and put them in like these five gallon buckets, carry them before church starts, stand outside in front of the door. And as people are walking in, I want you to give them one of these lilies.

And so she protested, but she's like, all right, fine. So that Sunday, what'd she do? Shows up with the lilies. And what happens is the smiles on the people's faces, coming into church, seeing her, seeing the flowers. And they're like, Oh, lilies are my favorite. So they're bonding over this one item that they both like.

And at the end [00:34:00] of the day, she felt she was not in her head anymore. Like giving away a hundred lilies, like. Made her feel like I'm not this miserable person because looking at these smiley people who are hugging me and, and loving on me and like, maybe I am worth something. And so that got her out of that depression, out of the room and people like, Oh, come on over for dinner tonight.

Or like she was invited and people like, yeah, isn't that great. 

It's beautiful. And, and when I did my 10 kindness challenge with the kids, some of them would get flowers and take them to like a nursing home or something and spend the whole day. Yeah. I mean, amazing what a flower can do. 

Yeah, 

everyone loves flowers.

Everyone loves to get flowers, give flowers. 

Yeah. You can't go wrong with a flower unless you're allergic to it. Let's see if someone, if someone to like some of your class your students in class are, are out there struggling with kindness because they're just like, no, like, I just don't see it.

They're just [00:35:00] self loathing. They've done a lot of things that they're not proud of in their past. And they're like, how could I, I can't forgive myself. What would you recommend? Like how could they start to share a little kindness? And sometimes it's easier to, to do it outside of ourselves before we can even do it to ourselves.

Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I would just take baby steps. I mean, I, if, if I had, you know, if, if I had a magic wand, I would like them to start with themselves and just say a few nice things to themselves. Like, thanks for getting dressed, thanks for eating breakfast. Thanks for feeding me healthy snack, whatever it is.

Yeah. 

But if, if they're not there, if that doesn't feel good, they're not ready, then I think just getting outside and smiling at a person or saying good morning or giving one compliment, one compliment, you know, a day, just baby, baby steps. You don't have to hand out the lilies yet. Just you know Any, anything like you could even bring [00:36:00] stickies with you and you could put like, my students do this, but you are awesome.

And then they stick it on the, the mirror in the changing room at target. So that when you go in there, nobody wants to go in there. You're like, Oh, okay. Or a mirror at a restaurant. You just put a little, you're awesome. 

Yeah. Or you're like, yeah, thank you. And so it, what came to my mind as you're with the baby steps is it could really be just, Any things that you're doing already today, you don't even have to change what you're doing.

You can just appreciate, Hey, I just hydrated myself with some water today. Like great. And sometimes, you know, we expect these things or we take them for granted, but it's like, you know, people in the world, there's a lot of people who have to walk like five miles to get some dirty water. And in a. You know, America and different places, we just go a few steps and can get it.

And we take it for granted. And it's like, wow, if I was born somewhere else, like it's kind of luck of the draw that I was here today and born in this and [00:37:00] making the most of it. But it's like, Hey, it's like maybe a gratitude list could be a start. Like, Hey, I really appreciate, like my shoelaces. I never think of appreciating shoelaces until they break.

And you're like, I really could use a shoelace right now. 

And, and anyone who's listening to this is still here and also that's something to appreciate 

right there. 

I mean, they may not be appreciating that right this second, but it is, it's a gift and a blessing, but gratitude lists, that's a whole nother thing that changes your brain chemicals.

If you can do three, five gratitude things a day, just write them on a piece of paper. I'm grateful for the air I breathe.

I'm grateful for the roof over my head. If you do those every day, your brain chemicals start to change and you start to feel more grateful. That's a great exercise. 

And you start seeing it around you, right? Then it starts expanding. I would do that with the IOP groups and literally I'd say, [00:38:00] okay, for one minute, write down everything you're grateful for as fast as you can.

And some people would be like. Three things, right. Or five things. And I'm like, okay, we're going to work on this. And I would do it cause I've done it for a while. And I would just like have two pages covered of just like double lines, like, like gratitude. And it's simple things like for clean air that I can breathe, like that.

I have all my senses, hearing, sight, right. We, we take these for granted, but when you don't have it. Holy cow. Do you appreciate it like afterwards, but why not appreciate it now? And so, yeah, just with what you're saying, I think when you look 

at little kids, they, they can do all that. Like they also can do what, what they like about themselves.

And I did this class, it just reminded me, it was so cute. It was like maybe kindergarten to third grade, we were just doing a little thing about what do they like about themselves, you know? And it was like, it's like my long red hair. I like how fast I run. And then there was a little girl in the back and she's and she's [00:39:00] Raising her hand, like so excited.

And I'm like, what do you like about yourself? And she said, I am great at life. And I just like, you go, girl, you just won the whole prize. Like, wouldn't you just love to be, you know, a middle aged person and being like, I am great at life. 

Yeah. I don't hear that in my field as a counselor. I usually it's like things I'm dropping the ball on things.

Like, yeah. Yeah, I'm not having my best moment right now in this lifetime. And so let's see all right. So I love the idea of having these external reminders like a sticky note, or even like a rubber band to say, or you put on your wrist being like, okay, when I see this rubber band, look at one, you know, be grateful for one thing, or, you know, even if it's take a deep breath, like that's a, that's a good idea.

Kindness in my body, oxygenating my, my body. Like that's a kindness act. 

Through your nose, out through [00:40:00] your mouth. Just, it puts, keeps your feet on the ground. I do that. If I get anxious, put my feet on the ground, in through my nose, out through my mouth. And all of a sudden I just feel like, whew, okay, got this.

Nice. So things, okay. So just to kind of help define again, cause it's is kindness is not as, A bad stressor. It's just, it's like a reliever. It relieves stress and promotes. Feelings, everything, 

longevity reduces stress, anxiety, depression. It's, it's just the best antidote for all your problems. 

I bet that little child who said, I'm just good at life.

I bet, you know, she's got some kindness going on in her head. Like I'm doing good at this. Yeah. Like I got this. 

I got like, 

I bet she sees lots of those red cars, like of what's good in her life and why it's working out well. 

Yeah. And, and also like, do look for kindness, like, like today, just look for it.

The [00:41:00] students came back and they were like, I can't believe it. I saw this. I saw that. I, I wasn't paying any attention and it's there. 

I think that's so important is those intentions because life we're so distracted, right? Bills and phones and computers and this and that. And and you know, it's like, Oh, is kindness one more thing?

It's like, I don't know if it's one more thing. It's just a different perspective. Right. It's just, you look in a different direction than the negatives and what's wrong in the world. 

Yeah. You kind of wake up your senses a little bit. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

I 

heard I had a client who was married to a tax auditor and so at work, all she's looking at is what's not matching up, what's wrong with this, right?

So when she comes home, guess what she's focusing on? What's all the wrong things like what's not happening? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, but if you kind of switch gears before you go into the house and being like, okay, I'm going to let work out and I'm going to appreciate, you know, the good things. Cause I worked too hard to have a [00:42:00] life where I'm stressed about.

Right. So I want to create that life that I've worked so hard for. That I really want that energizing uplifting and coming to the house. There's a story by Andy Andrews, who's a, have you heard of him? He's a writer and speaker and all these things. I love this story. Tell this one a lot. So he both his parents died at a young age and he's, he's got some Netflix videos out there and I really like them, but he shared this one story of how he started his own business and came home and had a briefcase and I was walking into the house, opens up the doors and, you know, puts down his briefcase is taking off his jacket.

And when he does that, his golden retriever or lab runs into the house, right, and runs right down straight to his wife, who he can see down the hallway, sitting on the couch, reading a book. And so the dog goes right to his wife and she gets off the couch and she's like, Petting the dog and the dog is wagging its tail so much that his whole butt is moving and he's so smiley this happy dog and they're [00:43:00] looking into each other's eyes and it's a big love fest and he's just standing by the door like stopping his taking off the jacket being like wait a minute I just came in and I just got hey and the dog comes in it's like a little faster you're like so put down your book you're on the floor you're back at your house how come I can't get that And she says, well, maybe if you wagged your tail more and smiled more and brought this energy into the house, then maybe I would.

And so he's like, okay. So the next day comes home from work and he's like, all right, before he walks into the house. He checks in with himself from zero to 10 and he's like, all right, how am I feeling? And some days it's like a three, like I feel miserable. 10 is a great day. And so what he would do is he's like, I work too hard not to have the energy that I really want for my household that I've dreamt of the marriage, the family, the everything, the love and all that.

It's like, The, my family, my home gets the worst of me. I'm deflated when I get [00:44:00] home and that's all I give them. And it's like, no, that's not why I work. I work to give them all this energy and to uplift. So he thinks of a time when he was a kid growing up, like, you know, maybe he like, you know, caught a winning football or, you know, beat someone in a running race or got an a on a test or something like where he felt.

And he. Tap tapped into the feeling of like a 10, right? So he's felt energized, he's felt inflated, he's recharged. So he walks into the house, he's intentionally bringing that energy of why he's working so hard in his life to bring to his. And so he, he goes in and he's like, you know, he says it really loud.

I won't yell, but Hey, honey, I'm home. And, and, and he would stop his stuff, go straight to her and give her a kiss or give her a hug and just value her and being like, he really helped him prioritize kind of how he's offering himself to his surroundings and environment. And it really came to, you know, being kind to himself, kind to his [00:45:00] dreams of what he's always wanted and, you know, wanting his wife to feel better and good.

And to me, that's kind of part of kindness where it takes work. It takes effort. We are going to be drained, but just because we're drained doesn't mean we can't change that in a moment and just present in a different way. And it doesn't mean we're lying to ourselves. So we're like, I'm not being authentic.

It's like, We're 100 being authentic. We can be really excited to see someone and be dead tired. Like both can exist at the same time. 

Yeah. Yeah. And, and just the active of, of, of really, really taking a look at how you show up in your life, right? It's nobody else's fault. Can't blame. Can't blame the world.

Just how do you show up in your life and how, how can you do a better job for yourself? 

Yeah, 

for yourself. 

Absolutely. 

It benefits yourself. 

Yeah. It's kind of like if you go to a wedding, you're sitting around a table of eight and they're all [00:46:00] like duds and nobody talks, and it's like you don't feel like you fit in.

And it's like that energy is really low, but if you come to the table or if someone comes to the table and they're like. Filled with, you know, energy and smiley and they're shaking people's hands around the table and saying, hi, I'm so and so and it engages people. And then they're laughing. It's like, what table do you want to sit at the one where nobody's talking and everyone's kind of isolated or the one who's out there being like kind and supportive and grateful, appreciative, and, you know, looking at, you know, the positive things that you could present in this moment.

So you guys could connect or girls or whoever. Yeah, it's the, that energy. It's that kind of energy. 

There was a, on a recent flight, not, not the one I keep talking about. Another one. One of the, one of the passengers brought the staff on the plane, those crazy little glasses like at Christmas time where they have like little Santa's on the top and they're colorful and, and all the flight attendants were wearing them and it just changed everything.

Like [00:47:00] it made everyone silly and it made everyone happy. And it was like Christmas time and. I mean, those glasses cost a buck at the Dollar Tree. You know, so there's just so many ways to change energy and 

yeah. And also speaking of flying I heard this story of a guy who he would fly, you know, around the world and different countries and things.

And I think it was Virgin Atlantic where he went to, and he always brings flowers. He's like, you know, 50 bucks of flowers or whatever. 30 bucks, whatever. And before they check him in, he's like, Hey, I just want to give these to you. And they're like, to me, and they're like, well, actually your whole crew, because I flew here last time.

And I had the best time and I didn't have a chance to say, I appreciate you, but I just want to say, I appreciate you. And he just leaves it at that. He's not looking for a way to get an upgrade. He's not asking for, and he's just like, I just want to say you have to put up with a lot of crap each day. I just want to say.

I appreciate all that you've been doing. If you can put that in your break room, so other people can [00:48:00] see that there's someone out there too. And he says, every time he flies, they will upgrade him. They will give him extra snacks. Like they will give him, you know, move them up to like, you know, business class or even first class, like.

Out of that kindness of giving that it opens up, people want more of that. And so they're like, Hey, we want you in our section. Like if you're grumpy and you yell, like that's actually going to give us the wrong opposite attention. Nobody wants to hang out or talk to that person. So yeah, it's 

that ripple effect too, that we were talking about earlier.

It's just, he did a nice thing. Then they want to do a nice thing. And then. You know, who knows? He, maybe us talking about his nice thing will inspire someone else to bring flowers. Like it just, it's a ripple. And I, with that 10 dollar kindness challenge, I started this little Facebook group, 10 Other Kindness Challenge, and at first people were like, I don't know that you should be like braggy and it's like braggy It's like it's [00:49:00] supposed to inspire you like if someone goes and gets some flowers and it's a two for one and then they get two flowers And then they give one set to the nursing home and they post it Then maybe someone else will go to Publix get you know, it's like it's not braggy.

It's a way to You know Let us, let us help with the ripple effect. 

Yes. It's kind of interesting. And tell me if you've experienced this or what your thoughts are on this is that, you know, when people are negative they're let, you know, a lot of people just let that go free and fully without worries of like, Oh, is that going to be braggy?

Is that going to hurt their feelings? Like when we do nice things, we put all these limitations like, Oh, I better not because it may be interfering with their boundaries. Is there like. I mean, people don't care about boundaries. Why can't nice people just do nice things and be like, if you don't like it, then don't like it, but I'm going to share with you.

I appreciate you. 

I mean, I would, I would wager that if you do something [00:50:00] kind for someone unconditionally, they're going to like it pretty much. And if they don't, that's kind of on that. Like, 

yeah, I'm talking way too much, but another story, this happened to me personally, where it's during the holidays one year and I was giving them like a little gift card to say thanks.

Cause they're helping with, you know, work doing leading groups or whatever, filling in for me. And so I give it to this woman and she was an older woman and she's like, got really mad at me. She did, she was like, Stuart, no, this is what we do as colleagues. We help each other. And she kind of scolded me for like appreciating her, how her saying yes to taking, you know, some of my groups, cause you know, sick or whatever.

And she took offense to it. And I thought. Oh, that poor person who can't experience kindness or appreciation. Like how miserable is it in her head that she can't just say thank you. And maybe if she doesn't want to take it, give it to somebody else. [00:51:00] Yes. Like. You can still pass it on. So those of you who are out there being like, this is stupid.

This sucks. It's like, I get it. You're in a tough place by doing these little acts. It will. The great thing is, is when we're in those tough places in our head, those positive emotional feelings will get us out of our head. We don't have to think it through. Kindness isn't a thought and like, Oh, what should I do?

It will get us out of those dark places of just. Being out there, kind, being kind. 

Totally 

love it. So let's see. 

Yes. Easy 

things. So let's see. So if, if people wanted to reach out to you or they're interested in a class, or if they're thinking like, Hey, are you ever going to do like an online kindness class, 

I know you are not teaching at the University now and your working on a wider audience.

Would people be able to contact you at all? 

Yeah, so I have I 

have a website

Called kindness effects KINDNESSS [00:52:00] effects EFFECTS dot com and then on Facebook I have a 10 kindness club and you can join it and where we post fun things that we're doing But yeah, that's it I do teach classes and do presentations and more time to get out there, the better.

Is there, I know we have to wrap it up, but is there like one or two kindness stories that have rippled out that stand out to you that you're like, Oh my gosh, I didn't see that coming. Or, wow, that was so helpful. Or this person just came out of the woodwork and I didn't expect that. 

Okay. So in my own life or just seeing 

all of it, any of it.

Okay, well one that really touched me and I really feel like he got it and I'm gonna mess up this university But it was it was a class was graduating for a particular university I think this happened last year and a very wealthy man gave them all I want to say I'm gonna make it up, but it was either 500 or 5, 000 but He told them half is for you and half is to give away and I just felt [00:53:00] like that's amazing That's like amazing because those kids are gonna get both things They're gonna get the joy of giving and he said you could give them to anyone you wanted could give it anyone And then they get the benefit of receiving.

So anyway, I love love that And then I mean, gosh, if everyone did that, that that's what the 10 is, you know, although they don't get the 10, they have to give it away, but giving away is so good for you. Okay. Another thing here's a silly one I had a student who first 10 kindness class He told us a story about how when he was in middle school This teacher would give them mints before they took a class before they took a test I guess it's good for you And he never ate the mint because he didn't like mints and one day the teacher said Why aren't you eating your mint?

And he said, well, I don't really like mints. What do you like? I like Jolly Ranch. I like grape Jolly Ranchers. So for the rest of the year, it would be mint, mint, mint, grape, Jolly Rancher, mint, mint, mint. And then first 10 kindness class, he got 10 worth of grape Jolly Ranchers and found that teacher and thanked him [00:54:00] for just, you know, helping him and seeing him and believing in him.

And that's a tiny little story, but I just thought it was so cute. 

I love it. Well, cause then every time she opens that bag of Jolly Ranchers, that's another act of kindness. So let's say there's 50 in there. That's 50 more expressions of kindness that is being given rippled out. 

Yeah. 

I love it. Yeah. Super cute.

So anyway, there's millions of them, but 

love it. Excellent. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. And I have a better idea of what kindness is and I encourage anyone and everyone to go out there and start spreading the word. Bread and some kindness to you, no matter what you do, it's coming back to you anyway, as well.

And so it's a win win everyone gets to win. And if we can create a more kind environment, well, I believe that could ripple out potentially into the world. Who knows why not, but we can start today. And the goal is, is to make today better than yesterday. So we can build off this foundation [00:55:00] to move us into the world that we want to live in.

And I think kindness is part of that. So well done. Thank you, Francesca. And yeah, if you have any questions for Francesca or anything, feel free and email me and we can also have her back. Would you be willing to come back if 

absolutely. 

All right. Fantastic. All right. Thank you very much. Bye.

Thank 

you. 

Bye.

Francesca 10 take aways 

[00:00:00] Thank you for joining Francesca and I in this conversation about kindness. I want to wrap up with the 10 quick takeaways to carry with you today and this week. So the 10 different ones that stand out for me, and you may have others is kindness strengthens recovery. It helps build emotional resilience and people want to be around us.

We even want to be around ourselves if we're kinder. Two, kindness as a coping skill. It helps reduce anxiety. Depression. It boosts mental health. It helps us get outside of ourselves and connect with others. Three. Start with yourself. Self compassion is the foundation. Being kind to yourself allows us to be kind to others.

It's much easier to do that. Five. Small acts. Big impact. Write a gratitude note, give a compliment, or volunteer. Simple actions with lasting effects. Getting outside of ourselves. Six, the ripple effect. [00:01:00] Kindness is contagious. The more we do it, the more we see it, the more we feel it, and the more it comes back to us.

7. Mindful Kindness Be present and authentic. I love Francesca's rule. Don't be creepy, dude. And so I think the key is, is just being altruistic, having no wants, right? We're not asking people for anything. We're not expecting anything. It's just, we give it away freely. 8. Break down barriers.

Kindness dissolves judgment and creates a safe place to reconnect. It allows them to feel vulnerable and feel safe. 9. Gratitude fuels kindness. Gratitude and kindness go hand in hand. You can write a list or express things. It's transformative. I kind of think of it. If you think, if you sit around kind of a campfire, you have this campfire and the campfire is going down, you add more wood, the fire goes up.

The wood is gratitude. The fire is kindness. The two work [00:02:00] together to create this warmth and connection that we can have with people. I love it. Number 10, make kindness a daily intention. Start each day asking, how can I be kind today to myself, to others, to the world? I'd love that question. How can I be kind today to myself, to others and the world?

You will be amazed at what unfolds. I bet miraculous, fun little gifts will be given throughout the day. Just by setting that intention. To close, here's a definition of kindness that I really like. So if you're kind of still wrapping your head around, what exactly is kindness? This is one that I like to kind of fall back on this definition.

So the definition of kindness that resonates deeply with me and reflects the heart of this podcast, this is really what this podcast is about. The foundation of it. Kindness is the quality of being considerate, compassionate, and generous towards others. Oneself. And the world, [00:03:00] it's about showing empathy and goodwill, often through small, intentional gestures that foster connection and positivity at its core, kindness is about recognizing our shared humanity.

And striving to uplift those around us. I love it. It's recognizing our shared humanity and striving to uplift those around us. I mean, to me, that's not thriving sobriety. I don't know what is. I hope today's episode has sparked something within you, whether it's a smile, an idea or an action. Remember, kindness isn't just something we think about.

It's something we do. It's something we live. So until next time, my friend, be kind to yourself and the world around you. Keep up the good work. I truly appreciate you and all that you're doing to do good in the world. Until next time, take care.