Ep 8 Dr Jordan Grumet, MD - The Purpose Code: Finding Meaning, Happiness, and Connection.

Episode 8: Dr. Jordan Grumet – The Purpose Code: Finding Meaning, Happiness, and Connection 

What if the key to happiness wasn’t about achieving grand goals but instead discovering the small, everyday joys that truly light you up? In this thought-provoking episode of *Sobriety Now What?*, host Stuart Cline sits down with Dr. Jordan Grumet, hospice doctor, podcaster, and author of *The Purpose Code*.  

Dr. Grumet shares his incredible journey from burned-out physician to purpose-driven author and speaker, offering profound insights into the paradox of purpose. Together, they explore why so many people feel lost searching for purpose, the difference between Big P Purpose and little p purpose, and how embracing the latter can lead to a more fulfilling, joyful life.  

Drawing from his work with the terminally ill and his own life experiences, Dr. Grumet reveals how regrets can serve as powerful guides, how meaning and purpose intersect, and why connection and community are the ultimate keys to happiness. This episode is packed with actionable tools to help you uncover your own purpose and live with intention, especially if you’re navigating the challenges of sobriety.  

Resources Mentioned:  

- Dr. Jordan Grumet’s books: The Purpose Code and Taking Stock  

- Learn more about Dr. Grumet and his work: Visit [jordangrumet.com](https://jordangrumet.com)  

- Listen to Dr. Grumet’s podcast: Earn and Invest

Whether you’re in recovery, seeking clarity in your life, or simply curious about how to live with greater meaning, this episode will inspire and empower you. Tune in now!  

Invitation to consider at least one helpful piece of information to help them thrive in their sobriety and to share with podcast with others and to follow and email questions. 

Transcript

Ep 8 Dr Jordan Grumet MD - The Purpose Code: Finding Meaning, Happiness, and Connection

Introduction: 

Welcome to Sobriety Now What? the podcast to help you thrive in your sobriety. Whether your sober curious, sober for a day or a lifetime. You are in the right place. 

Before we begin I have a question for you. Have you ever wondered what your purpose is. ?

 If so, your not alone, Many people also struggle with meaning and happiness in their lives as well. 

and this is why we are taking a deep dive into these topics with Dr Jordan Grumet the author of his book the Purpose Code. 

I normally do not read books twice in a week, but I liked his book so much I read it twice and invited him on the podcast To help you uncover how to find purpose, meaning and happiness in your life. After reading his book I was pleasantly surprised by the answers and have applied them to my own life. 

 I am happy to tell you that finding your purpose is simpler than you ever imagined? 

What if the key to happiness, health, and longevity wasn’t in achieving grand goals, but in discovering the small, everyday joys that light you up?

Dr. Grumet shares his extraordinary journey from burned-out physician to purpose-driven author, podcaster, and hospice doctor. You will hear how looking in the wrong places for purpose can cause anxiety which is why he breaks down purpose in two. Clarifying what a Big P Purpose and little p purpose is, and why the latter might just be the secret to thriving in a life of sobriety.

Dr. Grumet also opens up about the life lessons he’s learned from working with the terminally ill and why money does not make us as happy as we might think. But he will share with us what will make you happy. 

If you’ve ever felt stuck, unsure of your next step, or overwhelmed by the pressure to achieve, then this episode may just be what the doctor ordered. Get ready for a conversation that could change the way you think about purpose—and your life for the better. Lets begin!

[00:00:00] 

Speaker: Welcome to the podcast Jordan Grumet. Thank you so much for being here. Let's start with the basics. What's the purpose code and why did you feel compelled 

Speaker 2: to write this 

Speaker: book? 

Speaker 2: It's funny. I never thought I'd be writing a book about purpose. It all started a long time ago when I burned out a medicine and realized that I didn't wanna do that for a living anymore. I was exhausted, and I discovered the financial independence movement.

Someone sent me a book to read. I read the book. I'm like, oh, I can make my finances, put them together in such a way that it can support me and maybe I could step away from medicine. I actually wasn't that far. My parents had modeled great financial behavior. I had been saving and investing for a long time Anyway.

And so that left this space in my life to try to figure out what I wanted to do, which ended up being writing about personal finance and podcasting. And then I got rid of everything I didn't like about medicine, which was pretty much everything I was doing except one little piece is I was a medical director for a hospice and I'd take care of the terminally ill and dying, and [00:01:00] that I still wanted to do, even though I was burned out in medicine.

And so I'm doing this financial podcast and I was having all these experts on talking about personal finance and entrepreneurship and financial independence. And I'd ask them things like what's enough money look like? Or Why are you doing all this? And I get these blank stares. And so I wrote my first book called Taking Stock, which is what the dying could teach us about money and life to try to answer some of those questions because I thought my finance people just couldn't figure those things out.

But the dying, looking at life through the lens of only having weeks or months left, got really clear on what was important to them. And I thought I could really bring that information and knowledge to my personal finance people. And a main premise of the book taking stock was that we should put purpose first before we build a financial framework around it, which sounded great until I went to market that book.

And I gave a bunch of talks and I'd go to conferences and people would come up to me after the conferences frustrated. And it really surprised me. 'cause usually I try to give these really uplifting talks [00:02:00] and they look at me and they'd say, you keep on telling me to find my purpose, but I don't know what my purpose is.

I've been looking for it forever. I'm getting really frustrated. I don't even think there is a purpose. And after having people come up to me and say this over and over again, I did a deep dive into purpose. And I realized that there's a paradox there. Like studies show that people. Find a sense of purpose in life gives them health, happiness, and longevity.

Tons of studies show that your life is improved if you find a sense of purpose. On the other hand, up to 91% of people at some point in their life have something called purpose anxiety. This idea that trying to locate or figure out their purpose makes them feel depressed, anxious, frustrated, et cetera.

Exactly like the people coming up to me after my talks. And so this was a paradox. I did a deep dive into it. I realized that we probably get purpose wrong. And so I wrote the Purpose Code, a book to help people figure out purpose. 'cause I had spent so much time trying to help people pick, figure out finances.

And I realized that was straightforward, but most people didn't understand it. Purpose was exactly the same way. It's actually [00:03:00] fairly straightforward but most people don't know the steps. 

Speaker: Thank you for that. And I love the idea of the finances, which maybe if you'd be willing and I can have you come back another time to talk about that other book taking stock because with sobriety now, what listeners, people in recovery, they're starting over.

You were hospice doctor when people stopped doing drugs and they've been numbing out for many years. They feel like they're starting over again. And I wanna share with you, 'cause you've been on my mind since we set up this appointment, and just over the weekend, I came across this article, which I think really highlights how important your book the Purpose Code is.

It's I found it in Psychology Today. It's the Keys to Happiness, according to the World Happiness Report. And it was by world Happiness Report 2025, university of Oxford Wellbeing Research Center the author of Susan de White PhD. And what I thought was fascinating, is the five things that they found.

And they went, they go over 145 [00:04:00] different countries and they ask over 145,000 people what brings happiness to them. And the goal is to find out the happiness countries, the happier countries, and the five things that they talked about, the main keys to happiness you have in your book, and you describe how to do it.

So let me read what they came up with, which I thought was fun. I thought you might be interested in learning about or just hearing about. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's funny, I saw that article and I didn't read it yet. Oh. So I'm glad you're bringing it up. Go ahead. Okay. Wonderful. All right. 

Speaker: So here's the top five highlights.

And I'll do it quick 'cause I wanna get back to you, is one, human beings need relationships to enjoy optimum wellbeing and happiness. You cover that in this book. Two, being kind to others is essential to finding a sense of personal happiness. I just had a podcast about the importance of kindness.

Three, according, acknowledging the abundance of your own life, no matter how asur or extravagant it might be. Four, finding a sense of meaning and purpose, [00:05:00] which is right in line with the purpose code and your pursuit and life is necessary for contentment and happiness. And the fifth one is making healthy choices, lifestyle choices in terms of your basic needs.

Sleep, nutrition and exercise also contributes to your happiness and life. I thought that was perfect timing. What I loved about reading your book is you mentioned early on that the book is ultimately a journey towards happiness but it's not the goal. 

 What you really want for us to get outta this book is the connections and community and the meaning. And that's really how we win at life, and that's how we feel fulfilled and joy. Is that fair to say? 

Speaker 2: That is fair to say, and I love that list of five things because really in my playbook, all of those have to do with meaning and purpose.

And so if you read the book, I talk a lot about purposes associated with happiness, health, and longevity. But when you look at the longest standing study of happiness, the Harvard Adult developmental health study, people over 80 [00:06:00] years, thousands of people did questionnaires every two years, eventually did blood tests, MRIs, EEGs, did all sorts of data on them, and have found interpersonal relationships were actually the key to happiness.

Now, I just think little p purpose, the kind of purpose I talk about in my book is a conduit to relationships. But this idea of abundance really goes back to a lot of my ideas about meaning and how we bring in a sense of meaning into our life. And so most of those five things you talked about really boiled down to me to be meaning and purpose and how they inter, how they connect us to other people, basically.

Love it. 

Speaker: In this book you give different doctor prescriptions, if you will, and exercises for people to explore their own ways of finding little p purpose. And we'll talk about what that is in a moment and meaning, and I thought you did a, you're singing to the choir, but great job in doing all of that. 

 Can you talk more about the big P and little P and what does that mean? 

Speaker 2: Sure. So as I said, there are really probably two different types of purpose, right? The kind that brings the happiness, [00:07:00] health, and longevity.

And then the other kind, that 91% of us at some point have purpose anxiety about. The difference is Big P purpose and little P purpose. So let's talk about the anxiety provoking one. That's Big P purpose, and that is goal oriented purpose. It's usually big and audacious because again, we live in the United States.

So if you can dream it, you can build it, and it's very scarcity mindset oriented. It's like you either get into the Ivy League school or you don't. You either become president or you don't. You either make it to be a billionaire or you don't. The truth of the matter is most people don't, right? So it's highly failable.

You've gotta be the right person at the right time with the right skillset and a bunch of luck and resources and things that not everyone has. In fact, most people don't. So it's very easy to fail and it leaves us really anxious. Let's compare that to little p purpose. Little p Purpose is process oriented, so it's goal agnostic.

We don't care about the goal. We care about you doing things that light you up. And if we think about it that way, that's really abundant, right? 'cause there's a million different things we could do that light us up. It's pretty much impossible to fail. You start doing something, you like [00:08:00] doing it, you keep doing it, you don't doing it, you stop.

And it's not all or nothing. It's not like you either succeed or fail. As long as you're doing the thing you're doing fine. And so a big question is, so to me, ultimately little p purpose, we have agency over. And so it's something that I think is much more affirming for us. Whereas Big p purpose, we don't.

So the big question comes out is why do we always focus on Big P purpose? There are forces in the world that are pushing us towards Big P purpose. Social media is a huge one, right? We look at TikTok and Instagram, yes. And all the influences we're following, right?

They've got the six pack abs, they've got the seven figure business. They're traveling all over the world. They're wearing the nicest clothes so they're trying to sell us something. So they're selling us this image of Big P purpose, but they're really just trying to sell us. Some type of product, do they want us to follow them so they can make money?

But it leaves us with this version of Big P purpose. But it's not just social media and marketers, right? 'cause marketers are also trying to sell us this image to, to sell us a product. But it's our own families who often [00:09:00] wanna make up for their own shortfall or their own failings by dishing up a version of Big P purpose to help us be better.

And so they say they're just trying to help us not make the mistakes they made. But what they're really trying to do is foist a version of Big P purpose on us that they could never live up to. And so it's really endemic. A lot of us walk around this world with a version of Big P purpose, and it leaves us feeling awful.

I can't tell you how many really successful, wealthy individuals I know who look at me and say, I'm so burned out at work. I have no idea what my purpose is, and I feel like this big failure and it's you've got a great family. You've made more money than you know what to deal with, and you're extremely successful at your job.

And the reason why is they've always had this nagging belief that they were supposed to do this big outsize thing and they could never quite grasp what that was. 

Speaker: Yes. And I was always striving for the big P purpose [00:10:00] and, early on I always felt I wasn't enough. I didn't measure up once again.

And as other listeners are gonna have learning disabilities or anxiety and different mental health issues that kind of are our, stepping stones for them to, towards their happiness to master those, I remember this time in fourth grade, I was on recess. I was walking around with this other student and I didn't really know him so well, but he was just just walking around with me and I had to go in early 'cause I had a special class to go for, I think English or math or something,

so I'm walking and it's before recess is over and I'm trying to get rid of him because I have to go in early, but I don't want to tell him that I have to go in early. But he wouldn't leave. I stop and I'm like, Hey, I gotta go in 'cause I have this class. And he stops just as innocent as could be.

He was a nice guy. He just said, oh, I thought you were smart. I'm 56 years old today. I still have that. I have all these licensure after my day. I'm still this unconscious trying to prove, look, everyone I am enough. And you would think as a counselor I wouldn't [00:11:00] need any of those things, but yet I still have that.

Speaker 2: So what you're talking about is the difference between meaning and purpose, and that's a meaning problem. And I've been lately calling that what I would call a rosebud. So if you're familiar with the movie Citizen Kane? Yes. Citizen Kane was this character who had a really happy life up to a point during childhood, and then he ended up being adopted and was thrown into a world of wealth and luxury and competitiveness.

And the story is he is dying. And the last thing he says is Rosebud. And the whole idea behind the story is what does this word rosebud mean? And at the end, we realize it was the name of his sled. And it symbolizes this moment of joyfulness when he was young, before life became complicated with all the requirements of being adopted by a wealthy family and all the things that came with that, that made his life miserable.

And so the idea is that a lot of us have these rosebuds. We have [00:12:00] these things in our past that drive us where our innocence was lost or our happiness. Or basically we went through a trauma of childhood and that spurs us to get on these achievement treadmills and produce more and more. And we keep on thinking if we just produce enough, we'll feel enough, we'll make up for that Rosebud.

And then we get there and we produce all these wonderful things and then we still don't feel wonderful. And then so we have to double down and do even more. I love to talk about Steve Jobs. He was a perfect example of this, right? Steve Jobs made some of the greatest tech ever. He was incredibly wealthy.

But if you ask people who knew him, he was a jerk. Like he was unhappy. He had this daughter, but he never talked to her, and all these bad things happened in his life. He was adopted. His rosebud might have been this feeling of never feeling enough because his parents gave him up.

And because of that, no amount of achievement could make up for that. And so for people like us, part of our rosebuds might be those learning achievements, the thing that [00:13:00] spurred us to, to achieve so much because we have this pain, this trauma of childhood, this lived trauma that we don't know how to get over to convince ourself that we're enough.

And so that's a meaning problem. And a lot of times we confus that with purpose. And so a lot of people are trying to. Get past the Rosebud phenomenon by purposing their way to enough or purposing their way to happiness. It doesn't work. If you have a purpose problem, or excuse me, if you have a meaning problem from your past, a rosebud, you can't purpose your way to fixing that.

You actually have to go back and deal with that issue. You probably need some therapy and need to work about that issue and realize that you were probably enough as a kid, right? Even though some other kid said, oh, I thought you were smart. You probably always were smart, and in fact you were probably a good kid who heroically came through this and was able to accomplish all the things you did.

Once you start seeing yourself as enough already, you stop feeling like you have to prove your enoughness in the present [00:14:00] future, and then you can start. Jumping into purpose in a much joyful way, which is just the activities we do that light us up. When you no longer have to prove your worth or your value through purpose, it takes all the anxiety away and you can just do things you really like doing.

And so I think a lot of us have those rosebuds in our childhood, and we are just still as adults, fighting through to prove that we're enough by becoming super achievers. And it just, it doesn't work. It doesn't make us happy. 

Speaker: And I love in your book how you mentioned that if we follow those little P purposes we move into the community, the things that energize us.

And when I got into counseling in school, I was like, wow, these are the people that talk about the things that I'm interested in. They understand me on a level that I know. Like, where have you all been all my life? People. Like it was this. I hadn't found my tribe before. 

Speaker 2: That's where you become a genius.

And this is what's really important. Like you might have felt bad in school or had trouble with reading or math or whatever it was, and you didn't feel [00:15:00] great. And so you're gonna approach those kind of activities not feeling great. You don't really show up as your best self. But when you find these communities of people doing things that feel real, purposeful and exciting to you, you show up as your most lit up self and that's gonna naturally attract people to you.

Those you are going to get collaborators. You're gonna get people who know more than you who wanna teach you 'cause they see how excited and lit up you are. By this, you're gonna have other people who don't know as much who want you to be their teacher, who want you to be their mentor. And this is where again, we get to the most important part about happiness, which is those interpersonal connections.

This is where you form your communities of what I call communities of internal purpose communities centered around things that light you up and excite you. And I think this is where happiness really lies. But it's also where you can develop your zone of genius because now you're in a place where you feel good about yourself, you're doing something that excites you.

And so the likelihood that you're gonna perform better is just much higher. You are probably gonna make a bigger splash in that community because these things [00:16:00] are deeply important to you. And so it's all the stars align when we start doing things that light us up. 

Speaker: Yes, absolutely. And since we set up this appointment, I it's been on my mind a lot.

And I was talking to a client and I was playing with the idea of Big Pee Purpose, low Pee purpose. I was at that part of the book. And so I had this one client come in and she just got off of alcohol and she was having a tough time and five years of it isolating and just, and so I said, what excites you?

What are your hobbies? What are you interested in? And she says. I don't have any. I have nothing. I was like think about like day-to-day stuff. Da, nothing. Childhood. Nope. I don't remember my childhood. And so we let it go for a little while and we came around and somehow we got onto a holiday and she lit up and she said, I love cooking.

I love baking. I love giving it to people. I love the joy that it gives them. It's that's what I love. And I was like that's it. That's one of your little P purposes. Yeah. Do you ever find that we're, some of us are actually doing our little P purposes, but we don't give it value or [00:17:00] acknowledge it?

Oh, 

Speaker 2: all the time. I was like that. I loved writing and I kept on pushing it aside because I'm like being a doctor is what's important. That's, making a living. And so I'd push it off to nights and weekends, and I would never give myself. Really permission to pursue it in much more of a fulfilling way.

And I think a lot of us do this. People say, I don't know what my purpose is. But when you really ask them what keeps you up at night excited? What is your last thought when you're falling to sleep? Like the last thing you think about, A lot of times people know what the whisperings in their life are.

They're just deeply afraid to tell anyone or admit to it or stare at the face because then you have to say, okay, now I've gotta try to pursue this and maybe I'll fail and maybe it won't feel as good. And we get all these reasons not to do it, and people say. A lot of people tell me, I can't pursue my purpose.

Not, I don't know what my purpose is, but they say, I can't pursue my purpose. And usually it comes down to three things. Two, they'll admit and one the truth. The two they'll admit is they'll say, I don't have enough [00:18:00] time, or I don't have enough money. The truth tends to be, it's usually about courage. It's do you have courage to face down this thing that could be deeply important to you and do it?

And I find it's courage that's actually more the problem. And we can go into all sorts of arguments about why it isn't time and money but courage tends to be the thing that keeps people. 

Speaker: Yes. I wanna touch on courage because what I I believe for me, for my population I work with, I'm a substance abuse counselor, specialize that for over 25 years, work with them, doing a podcast to help support people and, one of the reasons is my mother and junior high got in recovery and that changed her being sober, changed my life. So to me, that takes courage. Exactly with what you said. I feel people who are choosing to let go of heroin, alcohol, whatever it is that they have, where it's numbing their feelings, in my opinion, not fully living, just going through the motions but not really feeling it.

And then once they stop, they have to feel all these uncomfortable feelings. And to me it does take a lot of courage. And I love how you acknowledge that because I don't think people, I think PE so many times, at least with my population, [00:19:00] their family or their friends who would be like that we, everybody does.

Everybody gets up and goes to work. But it's if you only knew the struggle, people have to get through the day sober. It takes so much courage. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, 

Speaker 2: And when it comes to this stuff, especially when it comes to purpose, I always tell people, it's straightforward. It may not be easy.

But it's straightforward. And so what I'm trying to do is give people a path of how straightforward it is, but I'm not gonna lie to you. This is hard stuff. Yeah. This isn't simple. On the other hand, I think building the kind of life you wanna have and being the person you wanna be, and ultimately getting closer to happiness.

Yeah. It's gonna be hard. This is not gonna be a walk in the park. 

Speaker: Yes. And what I love about it is, is I always think that sometimes our lives are small. We have these little kind of like our comfort zone, right? We get really too little, too comfortable sometimes. Yeah. And then if we just push on the edges, our life grows and windows of opportunity present themselves and our life gets so much bigger.

And I always think that when we take that courage and [00:20:00] we go halfway with the universe, whatever it is, the life people, it's somehow windows of opportunities present themselves in a way that they would never have done that before. And I always feel like things can happen on a dime any day. It's incredible.

Do you experience that 

Speaker 2: yeah. I, it's the old coaching meme. It's, if you want a different outcome, you need to do something different. But if you do something different, you by nature have to step out of your zone of comfort and do something uncomfortable. And whenever you step outta your zone of comfort, it's going to feel bad on some level.

But that's where growth occurs. And so when you're talking about that little growth, even just pulling a little bit on the edges so you can expand a little bit, what you're doing is, I'm recognizing that I want a different outcome. Like the way things are today aren't the way I want them to be in the future.

And to get there, I am going to have to step into the discomfort and acknowledge it, and accept it, and realize it for what it is, which is hopefully the beginnings of [00:21:00] growth. All expansion is uncomfortable. All expansion is uncomfortable. 

Speaker: What I notice with a lot of clients, including myself, is with change.

We don't really, I like my comfort zone. I am like, a hobbit. If I could, I'd be in my little hut just enjoying my life, having a meal, whatever. But to fully live, I have to continue every day pushing out. I have social anxiety. I have to meet people, I have to talk to people. I do public speaking.

I do the podcast. I do I'm constantly at unrest on my nervous system, that's my normal, you just live with it. And so with that it's easy to come with up with excuses. Like with this pod, when I first started the podcast, I remember one time shaking. I was so nervous and scared, what are people gonna think?

They're gonna judge me? All these things. And I was just like. Okay, whatever. There's 8 billion people in the world. I always think that a third are gonna hate me no matter what I do. They're gonna think I just suck a third, are gonna care less. I'm just, they're just, I'm just not their thing. But a third may love me or really like me.

And it's that's who I'm talking [00:22:00] to. Like I get the other things are gonna be there. And so I brings me to what you had mentioned earlier, which was time and money, those are two reasons we can say, oh, I can't do my little p purpose. I'm that victim mindset, right? I don't have enough time. I don't have enough money.

But you talk in the book about those two things. Can you touch on that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, the two common excuses people talk about, they obviously leave the courage out. So let's talk about time. So the US Bureau of Labor Statistics does the time survey every few years. And actually they show that average Americans have about four and a half to five hours of free time a day for leisure.

That's average. They actually find that people who make less money might have slightly more. So this idea that you don't have enough time just isn't true, at least if you're an average American. And then money we already talked about this already, but that study that you just talked about, the five things that have to do with happiness, how many of them had anything to do with money?

Zero. Zero. The Harvard adult developmental health study didn't show money. It showed interpersonal connections, [00:23:00] which I believe you get through to, through little p purpose. We know this, we know some of the happiest countries in the world are countries where. They don't have a lot of money. We also know tons of studies that talk about lottery winners who win a bunch of money and find that their baseline level of happiness falls back within months to what it was at baseline.

So we, we know that money just doesn't do it for people. So if you're gonna use that as an excuse, I think again, we're really talking about courage and those are just excuses. 

Speaker: And you mentioned some research that talked about a certain amount of money that they did that if they. Reached, I think it was 75,000 or whatever that, yeah.

Above that. Maybe it doesn't change a whole lot, but below that, certainly it can make our lives easier and more enjoyable. 

Speaker 2: So that was Kahneman and Deaton in 2010 did a study, which for the time $75,000, they found that basic. Once you get past making about $75,000 a year, the, it was very little incremental increase in [00:24:00] happiness.

There's a guy named Matthew Killingsworth who eventually did another study that questioned that, and it said, in some subpopulations, people actually do get happier with more money. But one thing I talk about in the book is they're not particularly great studies. Again, when you compare them to something like the Harvard Adult Developmental Health study, they really pale in comparison.

Most of their data is somewhat retrospective, meaning they had data already and then they asked the question and took the data that was already collected and tried to fit the data into the question. Most of them were with small groups, smaller groups of people, and most of them also collected data over short periods of time.

So they were very good studies for what they did. But again, I think they pale when you compare them to some of these bigger studies, like the one you mentioned at the top of the show as well as the Harvard study. 

Speaker: Wonderful. 

I want to get back to Big P purpose for a second because I hear that so many with my clients and people I talk to , and it's almost like what we mentioned earlier as far as that I'm not enough, but if I was the great YouTuber, a podcaster or [00:25:00] went to the Ivy League, then I'm somebody, 

and. We're not, we're still the same person. And then we have another goal, a big P purpose above that. And so we never get to achieve the brass ring or the golden ticket. Is that fair to say? Like sometimes when you get there you're like, 

Speaker 2: So I call that the achievement treadmill. We're on a continuous treadmill of achievements and every time we think if we just get to that achievement, we're gonna feel we're enough that life feels good and everything is great.

And most of us who've reached big achievements realize that if we're hanging our hat on the goal the end point, and we're not loving the process, you may get there, but you're a contentment only lasts for a certain amount of time. And then you're looking for the next achievement. They call it hedonic adaption, right?

This idea that we adapt to a basic baseline of happiness. And even when things like achievements bump up, bump us up briefly we're much more likely to fall right back down. And yes, if you have a meaning problem and you don't feel enough on the inside, no matter how many times you [00:26:00] achieve, it's not gonna go back and fix your trauma of the past.

To have a better sense of meaning. You've gotta go back and work on your past trauma to feel like you were enough back then. So you can stop trying to prove yourself enough in the present future. When that happens, purpose becomes a lot more light and airy because you no longer have to prove anything.

You can just go do these things 'cause they light you up. And that's not to say that all goals are bad. So big Ur I say, is goal focused and goal oriented. Little p purpose can have goals too, but you have to be a little bit more goal agnostic. It means you can have a goal, you can wanna run a marathon in under three hours, but the point is, do you enjoy the process of running every day and training and being in the midst of that marathon, whether you reach that three hour deadline or not.

If the answer is yes, then it's probably a little p purpose. If the answer is no, the only reason I wanna do this is to get into three hours and I start training. Extra days and working out extra hard, and I loathe every minute of the [00:27:00] process. Then I'm probably kinda shooting myself in the foot because I'm not really enjoying myself anymore, and it's probably not a good use of my time.

Speaker: Yeah. I love that. You think that I could do a marathon in three hours. I appreciate that. With two, two other thoughts is I'll hold onto that little jump. Okay. This doctor set. Okay. So a lot of my listeners are gonna have regrets, substance abuse, they made some bad choices.

They, we all, even if we're not substance abuse, everybody makes bad choices, that's just part of growing up and changing and evolving and growing. We're gonna piss some people off. We're gonna hurt some people. You don't even mean to, can you talk about, with kind of your hospice work too, as, as far as people dying, like action regrets and inaction regrets and what that is.

Speaker 2: Certainly. So a lot of people tell me, look, I don't know how to find my purpose. And I always tell them you don't really find purpose. You build or create it. But it is true. You need these inklings, these beckoning, these whisperings of things that you wanna build purpose around. I call those purpose anchors.

And that's where we get [00:28:00] into a discussion of regret. A lot of people say okay, fine. I don't have to find my purpose. I wanna build it, but then how do I connect with those purpose anchors? And so there are multiple techniques, and one of those techniques is regret. And I found this often in my dying patients, is they say, I really regret that.

I never had the energy, courage, or time too. And whatever came next in that sentence was actually a great purpose anchor. But you are right. There are different types of regrets. There are action regrets and inaction regrets. Let's start with inaction. Regrets. Inaction. Regrets are, I really regret that I didn't do something.

So a lot of people say, oh, they're on their death bed, and they're like, I really wish I had written that book. And so that's a perfect example of an inaction regret. If you're not on your deathbed, that's a great purpose anchor. If I knew I was always gonna regret not doing that thing, but I'm not anywhere near my deathbed, but I can use that visualization to start thinking about what some purpose anchors could be.

So inaction regrets obviously make really good purpose anchors. Action regrets are a little bit [00:29:00] different. And so for instance, someone dealing with substance abuse, their action regret could be like, I'm really sad that I was inebriated and ruined that relationship with my spouse, and that's an action regret.

Or I'm really upset that I got behind the wheel when I was inebriated and caused that car accident. And yes, those don't make always the greatest purpose anchors, but usually it's not that. You realize, everyone realize, I can't go and undo the thing that happened. It happened already. But it often becomes an inaction regret when you're like, yeah, but I didn't go and apologize to my ex-spouse for not treating them well and explain to them how I really regret it now.

So it actually becomes an inaction regret in a lot of ways, even if it started as an action regret because we're really sad that we didn't go and make amends. Like I had this car accident and I really hurt someone else's life. I'm really sad that I didn't start educating other people on the dangers of being inebriated and driving.

I'm really upset that I didn't take these steps 'cause I couldn't [00:30:00] undo what I did, but I could start doing things that could affect a positive change surrounding this regret. And so those can too become purpose anchors when we take something we did that we can't undo, but then we start thinking about productive and positive things we could do around that.

That could be actions in the future, that could be a version of purpose also. 

Speaker: Wonderful. And you mentioned a story in the book about a woman who is texting while driving, and I feel like this fits in. Would you be willing to share that story and what you learned from her? Sure. 

Speaker 2: This is a variation.

So whenever I tell a story in the book, it's always been changed, so you can't recognize the real story, but it is a variation on a patient that I actually had in my clinic and we were going through I'll say her sure. For the purpose of this. I'm right there with this conversation. Yes. But we were going through her history and she told me just this stunning story about, again, in this case, I'll say texting and [00:31:00] driving in which she was in an accident and someone died.

And she had made the decision that she couldn't undo that, right? She couldn't undo the trauma, the pain she caused the person's parents. But she sure as heck could start helping people not make the same mistakes she did. So she became a national speaker and went to schools and talked to kids about texting and driving and told her story, which was very painful at times.

But she had taken that action regret and turned it into a purpose anchor by taking action to alleviate, to make up for, to positively affect the world because she had done something that had very negatively affected the world. And I think it's a great example of how we can look even at action, regrets and turn them into purpose.

Anchors. 

Speaker: I agree. Wonderful. And you also talk about life review questions that you've used with your hospice patients, but also they can be helpful with just anybody, and you don't have to [00:32:00] be dying for these. Can you talk about the importance and how the, that can be powerful for people? 

Speaker 2: Certainly.

When patients are dying, we, in hospice. Admit them. We try to get their pain and nausea under control. We try to make sure they're in the right environment, whether that's their home or nursing home or in the hospital. And last but not least, we help them if we can come to terms with their life. And part of that is what's called the Life review.

It's a structured series of questions can be done by a nurse, a chaplain, a social worker, a doctor, or anyone can really do it with a patient. And it's running them through a series of questions to ask them about their lives. What were their biggest successes, their biggest failures, their biggest regrets?

Who are the people that were important in their life? What was the happiest moment in their life? What was the saddest moment? And it's just an inventory of people's life. And I think it's a really important thing to do, especially the regrets question, which really comes out because. Yes, we can do it with dying patients.

But the one thing about dying patients is they don't really have a lot of agency, right? They don't have a lot of time or energy to fix [00:33:00] things. So a lot of times when we talk about regrets or the things that didn't work in their life, we're really talking about disappointment, right? Because they don't have agency to fix it.

Whereas regret is something we actually have agency to fix. And so if we started doing this when we were young, maybe on a yearly basis doing our own life review and talking about what were the important moments of that year? What are we proud of? What are we not proud of? What do we regret? And then using that to hone in on some of the things that could become purpose anchors in our future.

I think it would just be very healthy. 

Speaker: Love it. And the word agency is we have control. We have choices. We can change maybe our perception, how we view it. And you talk about narrative therapy and meaning. Can you touch on what meaning is, how it's different than purpose? 

Speaker 2: So meaning is about how we cognitively think about our past.

And it's all about thoughts, right? It's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Happy people tend to tell themselves heroic stories, right? They'll see their past. They'll say [00:34:00] they had these traumas, these problems but they'll see that they heroically got through them. And so meaning is a journey to enough and happy people tend to tell themselves a hero story in which they were enough.

Unhappy. People tend to tell themselves a victim story. They see their traumas, their problems in the past, and they feel like they were thwarted, and so they never felt like they were enough. And so they see themselves in the present and in the future is not enough, and they figure they'll continue to be thwarted.

That's meaning purpose is about the present and future and is all about actions. It's not really about thoughts. It's basically doing the things we do that light us up. And so my argument is to be truly happy people, we need a good sense of meaning so that we feel we're enough so that we can walk into the present and future and just do things that light us up without trying to prove our enoughness.

And so I think that's the framework in which I look at meaning and purpose and how it relates to happiness. And of course. A lot of people I meet who tell me they're having a purpose problem. When I actually [00:35:00] ask them about the things that light them up, there are tons of them. What they really have is a meaning problem.

The story they tell themselves about themselves is not a heroic story. They see these traumas of their past. They don't know how to get past them. They're telling themselves unhealthy stories. And so the way to deal with that is not to create more purpose in your life. The way to deal with that is to actually go and evaluate some of those narratives.

So there's something called narrative therapy where we took, take the most traumatic points of our lives or the things that we're struggling with, and we retell ourselves that story. We separate ourselves from the trauma. We say I was basically a good kid who had something bad happen to them, as opposed to I was a bad kid.

And when you start separating yourself from the trauma and. Telling a different story like my dad died and that was bad, and how chaotic that was, and I was a victim and thwarted, so I couldn't do what I wanted to do when I separated myself from that and say, no, I was a really good kid. My dad died. But look how successful I became.

I had a [00:36:00] learning disability. I got over that. I went into medicine even though it wasn't the right thing for me, I still went into it and was really successful at it. But then heroically, I realized it wasn't the right thing for me and pivoted my life. It's the same story. It's just, it's telling yourself in a way that you, who realize that you're always enough from the beginning and relieving yourself of the need to keep proving that over and over again.

Speaker: I was thinking years ago how I was thinking how happiness also can be looking at people who have less than you so you can really appreciate and be like, wow, so much. But if we look at the Joneses, you talk about this in the book, we're looking at the Joneses oh, they have the house, they have the perfect kids, they have everything, the money da.

We're like, oh, we're not enough. And I remember this one time when it was many years ago, and surprisingly as a mental health counselor, I had some mental health issues, like depression. And this one day I was like, woe is me. Li I'm terrible. Life sucks, blah, blah, blah. So I was watched. So this thing came on tv.

It was a BBC news thing. I tried to avoid the dos 'cause it's just yikes. But in general, they were in [00:37:00] Africa and there was like this historic drought, I can't remember where it was. And they talked about, and they interviewed these people there, and it was, people were walking 50 miles on dirt floors.

They had really no clothes on. They just one little sheet or canvas, right? There were this one woman they interviewed. She had three children. She started off the trip with four children. She was so tired from holding her because she was literally a walking skeleton. She had no milk in her breast.

She couldn't feed the baby. She had to put the baby down on the side of the road and keep walking, right for another days and days. No milk, no water, no shell, no shade. It's just the heat's pounding on them. It's desert everywhere. There's no resources. And they get to this shanty town and people are flying in, or different countries are helping them.

And I thought my worst day is better than her best day. And so for me it was that perspective. And you touched on that in the book, 

Speaker 2: the challenges. Yeah. Here's the problem. With comparison you have no agency over [00:38:00] it. You have no agency Over people are gonna be better or worse than you.

And guess what? In this social media-based world, there are always gonna be people readily accessible that are better than you, that have more, that look more glamorous, that are succeeding more. Like you will never escape that in today's society. And so the comparison game will leave you feeling unhappy because they will always be someone better than you.

Speaker: Yes. And I find that as far as getting back to the community and connections, oh, I had this great story of this woman who was having a rough day, right? She was having a tough time with her marriage, tough time with her kids, tough times at work, like just a bad day. She's just usually, she's trying to keep up with the Jones.

She lives across the street from the Joneses, who we all think is, are amazing. And they had all those characteristics. So she was late at this recital where her child was performing with everybody else, and the only seat available was sitting next to her [00:39:00] neighbor, who was the perfect woman that she was competing with.

So she's oh, I don't have the patience for this. I can't do it anymore. I can't put up this facade. So she goes, she like, goes through the aisle, sits down next to her, and she's just not happy. She's sitting next to her 'cause she's jealous of her life and everything. And she looks up at the stage and her child is like raising like the violin, trying to get everyone to wave.

 That's not what he is supposed to be doing. He is supposed to be playing as violin. So everybody sees her child and she's cringing, and here we have the Joneses next to her. At the break her neighbor says, Hey, how are you doing? And she's I didn't have it in me anymore to say everything was fine.

And I just let loose all my problems. I was just like, this is what's going on, judge me if you want. I don't care. And so her neighbor sat for a minute and and this client was like, oh, I'm sure she's judging me and she can't relate to me. I'm sure she wants to sit somewhere else. And then after a long pause she says, you know what?

Yesterday I got a letter from my brother. I. He abused me for my whole childhood and he [00:40:00] wants to connect again and I don't know what to do with that information. And my client was like, she's not perfect. That was a bonding connection community moment for her. Like perfection. It doesn't allow us to connect with people everyone's suffering on their own level.

Is that fair to say? 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Strangely enough my mom remarried and we moved to a relatively wealthy suburb when I was, what, 12 or 13. And our neighbors were literally the Joneses, like that was their names. And they each, they had two or three $500,000 cars. They like they owned a bank. These were like, these were truly the Joneses.

So I find it so funny when people talk about keeping up with the Joneses, 'cause my neighbors were literally the Joneses. 

Speaker: That's hysterical. My mother currently lives next to the Joe's with basically the identical, uber rich. Her house is anything but Uber rich. So yes.

 Ultimately, we're all people, if we can connect to that human level, that community, that connection, and sometimes it takes a little, some trial and error to [00:41:00] find our community and our people. 'cause we're gonna, bump into some people who just don't get us.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker: The art of subtraction and addition as well as throwing kind of spaghetti at the wall approach as far as finding purpose. Can you touch on that? 'cause I thought that was a powerful point as well. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. So we're talking about different ways of finding your purpose anchors.

We talked about regret already. That's a good way to connect with your purpose anchors. Another way is to think about joys of childhood. What did you love as a kid? I always tell people I loved baseball cards when I was a kid, and I still get excited when I see baseball cards today. So that could be a great purpose anchor for me.

What did you love when you were a kid? Another really easy way to start thinking about what could be a purpose anchor for you is to look at your job currently. And so a lot of people like I don't love my job. And I say write down the 10 or 15 roles and responsibilities of your job and start getting rid of everything you don't like.

Are you left with anything that you do? And this was, I was a perfect example of this. I was burning outta medicine. There was so much I didn't like, but when I used the art of subtraction, I got rid of everything I didn't like. And what I really liked, the one little piece was hospice work, which I was doing just a few hours a [00:42:00] week.

And so when I eventually was able to step away from all these things I didn't like I kept doing the hospice medicine 'cause it was something I do even if I wasn't being paid for it. And so if you could say, look, there's this piece of my job, even if it's a tiny little piece that I would do, even if I wasn't being paid for it, that could be a purpose anchor.

And you might be able to build some purpose around that, maybe within your job, right? 'cause people are like I'm stuck in my job. Maybe you do a little bit more of that in your job and you start ling purpose in your job. Or you say this. Connotate something I like to do at work, but I could also start doing some of these things outside of work that I really enjoy that are related to this sense of purpose.

And so it's just another version of a purpose anchor. 

Speaker: I love it. 

 Another powerful thing I found in your book was generational growth and generational trauma and legacy. Can you please touch on that? Because so often, I know a lot of my clients and people in s sort of abuse issues, they grew up maybe with o like generations of substance abuse and abuse or physical abuse and poverty and different things.

And that can be obviously [00:43:00] generational trauma. Sometimes we can pass it on. But then there's passing on generational growth. So I'm gonna just pass that over to you to touch on. 

Speaker 2: So a lot of people listen to my theories about purpose and they say, God, it big P purpose little p purpose.

Understand that God, it use your purpose anchors to build a life of purpose, don't find purpose. Got it. But then they'll look at me and say, but I want impact and legacy. Like I wanna change the world. And that's why I keep on going for Big P purpose. And so when people say that to me, I often tell them the story of my maternal grandfather.

My maternal grandfather died about 10, 15 years before I was born. So he died in the 1960s and I was born in the 1970s and I never met him. But he had a version of Little P Purpose. He loved math and because he loved math. When my mom was a little girl, he would sit her on his lap and he was an accountant, A CPA, and he would take out his spreadsheets.

'cause back then in the 1950s they didn't have computers. They had just these huge charts that they would [00:44:00] write in the boxes and he would show her what number went in each box and why. And my mom saw him lit up doing something that he loved doing, not 'cause he was gonna make money or not 'cause it made him important news.

Just he loved math, he loved doing this. And so she has, most kids tried on that identity. She's he likes that. I love my dad, so maybe I should see if this fits me. She actually found that it did. And strangely enough, she eventually became a CPA because she loved math also. And as we talked about briefly, when I was a little kid, I had a learning disability.

And in fact, I couldn't read like the other kids when they were in their beginning readers. I was coloring in a coloring book with crayon. But the one thing that kind of saved me, the one reason I didn't feel totally out of it and unworthy, was because while I was horrible at reading, I was excellent at math because I had tried on my mom's identity and she had loved math, so I loved math.

So I was at the top of the class in math, even though I wasn't good at reading. And so this gave me the confidence. I eventually [00:45:00] went to tutors. I got better at reading. I got back to grade level. Eventually I went to, high school, college, eventually medical school, and I entered this highly mathematical field, right?

So becoming a doctor, it made sense. I had a love of math just like my mom. And one day I was rounding at the hospital at the beginning of my career, and I saw this patient and he was sick. He kept on getting admitted over and over at the hospital, this young guy, but he would get really dehydrated and literally be on desk doorstep.

And when I saw him, I looked at his lab results and I saw this mathematical connection that I had never seen or no one else had seen, and realized that he had this rare disease. We actually made the diagnosis and it was one of those wonderful diseases there. We got him on the right medicine and he got better right away.

Never came back to the hospital again. This guy was a youth pastor at a local church and he would take in runaways, and so here was the thing. My maternal grandfather guy I never met, through his version of little P Purpose, like a stone dropped in the ocean, created a [00:46:00] small displacement of water.

But over the decades and over the miles, that displacement of water would join with other little waves at times to become massive and mighty and would dissipate and become small at other times. But 60 years later, it's still coming up on the shore and changing people's lives, and that is impact, that's legacy.

And that has nothing to do with Big P purpose. He didn't intend for this to happen. He just did what he did. Did because he loved it. But often when we talk about what our generations hand down to us, we talk about generational trauma, right? Past generations went through difficult things. They teach us a way of being.

They hand down that trauma, and it almost becomes encoded in our genetics. But I like to talk about the exact opposite. My maternal grandfather practiced little P purpose and he created generational growth, his love of math and his putting that into action instead of trauma. It was growth he gave to my mother, and my mother gave [00:47:00] to me.

And all these 60, 70 years later, that growth is still changing the world. And so I think we're, we often focus on generational trauma, but there's also such thing as generational growth. And the way you get there is by practicing your little p purpose, because that's where the impact and legacy really occurs.

Speaker: Can you touch on the rules of the climb as far as the little p purpose, and what does that mean? 

Speaker 2: So the climb is basically little p purpose in action, right? So once we know these purpose anchors, then we have to build a life of purpose around them. And so I call those climbs, right?

And you can have one climb. Let's say you have this one version of purpose in your life, but you can have tons of climbs and you can change climbs from time to time. So I think I put a little box in the book about the rules of the climb. But they're pretty straightforward is they can't be goal oriented, right?

It can't be big p purpose, it has to be little p you can change climbs from time to time, so you don't have to be monogamous, you can change climbs from time to time. They have to be impossible to fail, so the whole thing about little p purpose is it's impossible to fail. It's abundant.

Can you gimme an example of that for my [00:48:00] listeners? Certainly 'cause sometimes they feel 

Speaker: oh, I'm gonna fail and they create these scenarios. 

Speaker 2: So for me, podcasting is a little p purpose. I love podcasting. And so the reason why it's a little p purpose is the minute I turn on the mic and I start interviewing someone I've already won.

It doesn't matter if it's good interview, it doesn't matter if I put that interview out and a thousand people listen to it. Or if I accidentally erase it and no one hears it, that is a win because I love doing it. There is no way for me to fail. And if I stop loving doing it, then I just stop doing it and start doing something else.

Change that to a big people purpose. Let's say my goal is to have a million downloads a month. I could still love interviewing people, but if I start like getting on TikTok and making Instagram reels and doing all these things I hate doing because I really wanna have those million downloads and that's how you get them.

If I start doing things and not enjoying the process anymore, I took what was little p purpose for me and turned it into Big P purpose. So little p purpose is impossible to fail. [00:49:00] Do things you love and once you stop loving them, do something else. And so I think we mentioned most of the rules of the climb.

I guess the only other one that I didn't mention is this idea of incremental gain. You can, we all like to achieve something. You can build incremental gain into your climb but it has to be something you have a little more agency over. So I might not have control whether I get a million downloads or not.

On my podcast, but I certainly can become a better interviewer. Like I can go and listen to good interviewers and take notes and learn from them. I certainly can maybe engage in something. I enjoy the process of doing, like having a Facebook group and maybe getting a few more listeners. So those are things I can do.

But focus on the things you have agency to cause some incremental gain and as opposed to going for kind of those big p gains that you might or might not be able to achieve. I love 

Speaker: that. One of my goals this year is to just show up. Just whatever it is. Just be present. 'cause I'm in my head a lot. I'm in the future, the past, whatever, and it's just to show up.

And that's what I'm hearing you say is [00:50:00] for you when you go to the podcast. I just showed up. That was my job. That was the win. Anything else is a bonus. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's hopefully you love doing the podcast and so there's the joy anything else Exactly is a happy side effect. But let me again talk about impact and legacy.

When I was a doctor. I would see maybe a thousand patients a year. And so for me, becoming a doctor is Big p purpose. 'cause my father died when I was young and he was a doctor. So I'm like, I can make up for him dying by becoming a doctor and I can save the world, right? So I had this very big p purpose version of being a doctor, but I got there and realized that wasn't working for me.

Like it didn't make my dad come back, he was still gone. I couldn't save the world. Sometimes you see these patients and you just can't help them. And so I burnt out really quickly, but I was helping about a thousand people a year. So I started transitioning away from medicine, started doing something that I just really loved and enjoyed writing and podcasting and having these deeper conversations.

Fast forward eight or nine years, my podcast goes [00:51:00] out to millions of people. I've written books that thousands and thousands of people have seen My impact and legacy is so much bigger than it was being a doctor I interact with and impact so many more people. But that was never really my plan. I was just doing something that lit me up that excited me.

But I would assume that because it lit me up and excited me, that made me exceedingly attractive to other people. They wanted to hear what I had to say because they heard the passion in my voice. Because I kept on creating this content. I didn't just go away because this was my little people purpose.

And so I think, again, if you really wanna impact the world, stop worrying about impacting the world. Do what you love and do it well. And other people can't help but notice. 

Speaker: Yes. When people, are lost for what they wanna do, what they're interested in, and you mentioned this in the book too, is, what puts a spring in your step to get outta bed in the morning?

What is that energy that makes you excited and then what are the things that make you wanna hit the snooze and put the [00:52:00] covers over your head and stay in bed? That's a quick kind of switch to be like, I know I don't like that, but I know I'm more excited about this other thing.

Do more of what energizes us, right? Because it is, I think it's about joy and energy and happiness and like we can work on things like you had mentioned in the book flow. If you're excited about something, if you're in your low p purpose, it's comes easy. It's easy. It's not a struggle. There's no fight to it.

It's just flows. 

Speaker 2: You build communities, which I bet if we looked at what you do through your counseling and your podcast, you're building communities of people. And again, back to that Harvard study, interpersonal connections. It's what makes us happy. Yes. 

Speaker: I love it. What would you recommend that they try to move into their little P purpose?

Speaker 2: I think the first most important thing is to realize that purpose is abundant. It's not this big ephemeral, difficult thing. It is everywhere and it's reachable. And if you can make that mindset switch, [00:53:00] it becomes a really short path to then get to what could my possible purpose anchors be, and how do I build the life of purpose around those?

But you've got to believe that as reachable and that it's abundant and that it's straightforward. And I think if you can make that mental shift, it all becomes so much easier. 

Speaker: I've heard over the years, many people when they talk about brothers or sisters, they're like I like art, but my sister, my brother's the artist.

And it's yeah. Okay. It's those limitations we put on ourselves. Maybe we need to just like unhinging those, cut those cords and just be ourselves and move in our direction without that comparison like you're talking about, just be you. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. What if you didn't have to prove your enoughness through how good you were at art and you could just go and enjoy it?

Because that's what you're saying when you're like, they're the good one. What you're really saying is I'm not good enough at it and it doesn't really show me to be enough, so I'm not gonna pursue that thing. 

Speaker: I think we're gonna wrap it up there because not only is that great for art, that's great about like life too.

[00:54:00] Life is a creative living kind of dynamic thing that we're always trying new things with and adding hopefully more color into our lives and, jordan, I wanna thank you for being here today because you're helping me ripple out my hope and dreams for people into the world as I hope I'm helping you ripple out your goals and hopes. And I'm such a big supporter of your book, the Purpose Code, 

can you please tell me the name of your 

Speaker 2: first book? Sure. My first book is called Taking Stock. This book is called The Purpose Code. If you wanna know more about either of them, just go to Jordan grumet.com. That's J-O-R-D-A-N-G-R-U-M-E t.com. There you can see links to both of my books as well as where I spend most of my time, the Earn and Invest podcast, as well as all the other places I create content.

Speaker: Just go to Jordan grommet.com. 

Keep up the good work and I look forward to hopefully touching base with you in the future sometime.

Speaker: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And thanks for the 

Speaker 2: great conversation. 

Speaker: Thank you, Jordan. Bye.